Revisionist Ancient History

posted by kateye:

We all have our areas of interest and ancient history has been one of mine.  After all the years of schooling I have had, plus numerous years at Universities, including Teaching, I have basically thrown everything out I ‘thought’ I knew and started from scratch with those pioneers that have defied the ‘norm’ and started their own projects without ‘university funds.’  These are the people (with discretion, as always) that are coming to the forefront using their own best means for finding the truth in who we are as a people, nation and earth plane that deserve recognition and respect.  It’s hard to believe that the destruction of megalithic structures is still going on today, but it is, in every country, as well as historical documents (those that have not been hidden by the Vatican).  Someone does not want us to find out who we are, where we came from, or to acknowledge our own power and history, and, in turn, doing everything they can to wipe out the physical aspects still predominant all over if you look (seek and ye shall find!).  A very dear friend has also been seeking these histories so with his help and the help of anyone that wants to contribute, lets find out who we really are.

And the best way?  Let’s start at the very beginning…well, at least the living versions we have tangible evidence for!  Who knows how many civilizations and earth changes there have been since the beginning?  Mythologies from all cultures, or tribal verbal stories brought down from hundreds of generations seem to point to at least 4, possibly 5 different epochs that could span more than a 100,000,000 million years.  Instead of outright denying these myths, stories and legends, it may behoove us to re-investigate those forgotten tales, probably told so we would NOT forget in the first place, as a protective device against the ‘powers that be.’  Many have speculated that the catholic inquisitions from the medieval period was an attempt to wipe out the real history to enforce the Roman rule of law we are still under today and had nothing to do with the enforcement of a ‘religion’ (although they could be one and the same).

So far, Russian geologists and historians seem to be the best and most aggressive at determining our real history and these are finally getting translated to English but there are others as well.  A site that was sent to me the other day is from Dr. Alexander Koltypin (http://earthbeforeflood.com/first_chapter_of_genesis_-_the%20story_about_creation_of_new_heaven_earth_and_men_termination.html).  He came upon the interpretation of Genesis from Hebrew (which is estimated to be a far older language than originally thought) to English and the difference is jaw dropping (IMHO).  It appears the ‘days’ were not necessarily interpreted correct and once the ‘poetic’ language is removed, we see a new meaning of Genesis I that is far more descriptive and mechanical than we have been given.  Even if you are not a student or proponent of the bible, the book can be used as a historical document as well as religious guide.  The bold represents the interpretation while the KJV is first with the Hebrew under that:

My first comment: notice the big difference between the KJV words and the words of the literal translation – for instance in the beginning is not equivalent to the shaking – how does shaking have anything to do with the great beginning of all things?

1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
(The shaking, Shaper created the Heights and the Firms.)

Second comment: if Firms=earth, then wasted and empty is completely different than without form and void – wasted and empty implies destruction of something that already exists – without form and void does not imply destruction – it implies something that does not yet exist

2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
(And the Firms were wasted and empty and Darkness the turn of the echo. And the Movement of Shaper cherished ascended the turn of the Waters.)

Third comment: Darkness the turn of the echo implies a distant remote place, a location where darkness resides and where the mechanical vibrations (sound) of an echo will literally turn around – a place with something like a solid wall – perhaps the end of the universe
Darkness was upon the face of the deep does not imply a place where something happens – it implies stillness rather than motion (deep=oceans)

Fourth comment: ascended the turn of the waters is more descriptive than moved upon the face (surface) of the waters – the waters are turning (moving somehow) and Shaper is ascending (going up) the turning waters – or perhaps they are frozen solid and Shaper is climbing up frozen waves

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
(And Shaper said, “Be, Light” and Light was.)

4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
(And Shaper saw the Light, that it was positive and Shaper separated from the light from the Darkness.)

5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
(And Shaper met the light as Heat, and the Darkness met as Folded-Back. And the pledge and the redemption; One Heat.)

Fifth comment: met the light as heat is not equal to called the light day – to meet the light as heat implies expansion – it also implies the first feeling of heat as if to warm something up – it is also causing light so the KJV translator chose to call it the first day – perhaps it was a temporary light

Sixth comment: darkness he called night is not equal to Darkness met as folded-back – to meet darkness as something that is folded back implies a barrier or the opposite of expansion – it implies a contraction (as one would expect with something devoid of heat) – so again, as above in third comment, darkness is some place where things (like mechanical sound vibrations) are forced to fold back upon themselves

Seventh comment: evening and morning is not equal to pledge and redemption – I don’t understand how pledge and redemption can be translated evening and morning – the entire literal text appears to be a scientific and legal explanation – and the KJV is more poetic – the poetry removes the scientific and legal meaning
Pledge and redemption have to do with paying off an obligation/debt- not with days of the week
Pledge = solemn binding promise, something given or held as security to guarantee payment of a debt, delivery of goods/property as security for a debt or obligation
Redemption = payment of an obligation, recovery of something mortgaged (or held as security), salvation thru sacrifice of Jesus

Eighth comment: one heat (probably means first heat as in first level of heat – i.e. first bit of heat from first light or electromagnetic energy)

6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
(And Shaper said, “Stretch, be the severance of the Waters and divide the Waters from the Waters”.)

Ninth comment: Stretch, be the severance of the waters implies expansion again – the waters are severed (cut sharply) by a stretching – firmament implies firmness or solidity which is not the same as expansion – so the theme of the literal translation is warming up and expansion and stretching – there is no similar theme to the KJV
Note: the word firmament caused ancient people from Mesopotamia, Greece, Egypt, India, early America and early Australia to believe the sky was a solid object – which of course is incorrect for today’s universe – we don’t know the original size and shape and configuration of the universe (presumably it was smaller in the past) – both translations are clearly talking about something that solidly separates the waters above (in heaven) and the waters below (oceans) – the literal translation implies a large distance of separation – this could be God separating His abode (home) from earth by a greater distance – this would be consistent with ancient mythologies of God being closer to earth in the past and visiting with Adam in the garden of Eden

7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
(And Shaper did the stretch and divided the Waters which depressed the stretch from the Waters which ascended the stretch and erected.)

Tenth comment: same confusion between stretching (expansion) and a solid firmament

8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
(And Shaper met the stretch as Height. And the pledge and the redemption; Change Heat.)

11th comment: change heat sounds like an increase in temperature or energy level because below this it says triple heat which is another increase in heat level – what I want to know is why would that be translated as the second day?? (maybe the light was temporary and it got dark again – but text doesn’t say that – but the first light would signify the first day I guess)

9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
(And Shaper said, “The Waters of the Height, bind at one raise and dry see”.)

12th comment: bind means to pull together or bundle up together – it can also mean to encircle or surround – here it says bind at one raise the waters of the Height (Heaven) which implies the waters above were elevated – the waters above the firmament were elevated and expanded farther away from earth
The KJV says the waters under heaven

10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
(And Shaper met the dry as Firms and the bound of the Waters met as Roars and Shaper saw it as positive.)

13th comment: we have an expression the roaring waters – it means turbulent moving waters like found in a river with a lot of rocks and fast moving turbulent water – this could be springs of water gushing forth at higher elevation and tumbling down the new earth and forming the first rivers – see comment 20 below

11And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
(And Shaper said, “Firms, sprout Sprout, Glisten sowing sow, and Produce Hard doing produce of its portion which sow Firms”.)

14 th comment: Hard might be another word for abundantly – I am not sure

12And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
(And Firms departed Sprout, the Glisten sowing sow of its portion, and the Hard doing produce, sows of its portion, and Shaper saw it as positive.)

13And the evening and the morning were the third day.
(And the pledge and the redemption; Triple Heat.)

15 th comment: it sounds to me like the heat (which is causing expansion and is warming up the earth or universe or both) is now being tripled – it is increasing to three times what it was at one heat above in Verse 5

14And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
(And Shaper said “Lights the stretch of Heights, divide the Heat from the Folded-Back and consents and appointeds and Heats and Changes.)

16 th comment: this sounds like a permanent separation of the darkness/cold from the light/heat – perhaps this is a permanent separation of evil from goodness – see next comment below

15And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
(And Lights the stretch of Heights, lighten Firms”.)

16And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
(And Shaper did changed magnified Lights; the magnified Light to rule the Heat and the loathed Light to rule the Folded-Back with the Burns.)

Comment 17: the KJV says two great lights were made – but the literal translation is very different – it says one great magnified light was made to rule what was warm with heat – and a loathed light was made to rule the folded-back
To magnify = to make larger, hold in greater esteem, increase in significance
to loathe = to hate, despise, abhor
so one larger, magnified highly esteemed light was made for what was warm with heat (warm = good?)
and a loathed, despised, hated light was made for the folded-back cold darkness (darkness = evil?)

17And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
(And Shaper gave the stretch of Heights to lighten Firms)

Comment 18: Shaper caused another stretch or expansion to give light to earth

18And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
(and rule the Heat and the Folded-Back and divide the light from the Darkness and Shaper saw it as positive.)

19And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
(And the pledge and the redemption; Sprawl Heat.)

Comment 19: to sprawl is to spread or expand = so the heat is caused to spread out more again

20And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
(And Shaper said “Waters, teem Teems of breathed life and Flies flying ascended the Firms the turn stretch of the Height.)

21And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
(And Shaper created magnified elongations and living breaths creeping the Waters teeming of its portion and cornered Flies of its portion and Shaper saw it as positive.)

22And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
(And Shaper blessed, saying “Produce and multiply and fill the Waters, the Roars, and Flies, multiply, the Firms”.)

Comment 20: here the word roars is used again and it is used separately from the waters – so it must signify springs of gushing water upon the earth as opposed to the waters of the oceans – these roars would then be springs, rivers that flow upon the earth and fresh water lakes – and the flies would be the skies

23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
(And the pledge and the redemption; Five Heat.)

Comment 21: another expansion of heat? Five times as much heat as before?
This is why I suspect the earth may have been frozen after a destruction event – in verse 1 above it says the shaking – then in Verse 2 it says the Firms (earth) earth are wasted and empty – now here in Verse 23 it is still expanding the heat (and still says nothing about days like the KJV)

24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
(And Shapher said, “Firms, depart living breaths of its portion, Mutes of its portion, and Creeps and living Firms of its portion”.)

25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
(And Shaper did the living Firms of its portion, and Mutes of its portion, and Creeps the red of its portion and Shaper saw it as positive.)

Comment 22: the reds have something to do with the Creeps – I am not sure what the Mutes or the Creeps are – I can guess the Mutes are the animals that do not talk or make any sound because mute means unable to speak – so the Creeps may be the animals who can speak
The color red comes from the Sanskrit word for blood so the creeps may be the animals with blood – the Bible also says the life is in the blood – so it could have something to do with the spirit of life that is in us – maybe all animals with blood have the spirit of life which makes them different from other simpler life forms

26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
(And Shaper said “Do Red as the shade likeness and rule Increases of the Roars, and the Flies of the Height, and Mutes, and Firms and Creeps that creep the Firms”.)

27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
(And Shaper created Reds as the shade; the shade of Shaper created, remember and pierce created.)

Comment 23: this verse says red is the shade (color) of Shaper – so that could explain the KJV translation of man being created in the likeness (image) of God – the only other thing I can think of is the beginning of oxidation – such as the oxidation of iron which causes it to turn red and is the reason so many rocks are reddish

28And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
(And Shaper blessed and Shaper said “Produce and multiply and fill the Firms and subdue and rule the Increases of the Roars and the Flies of the Height, and the Creeps that creep the Firms.)

29And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
(And Shaper said “Consider given the Glisten sowing sows the turn of the Firms, and the Hard (the Produce of the Hard sowing sows), to be consumables)

30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
(And the living Firms, and the Flies of the Height, and Creeps of the Firms; living breaths, the spit Glisten is a consumable.)

31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
(And Shaper saw which He did as raking positive. And the pledge and the redemption; Six Heat.)

1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
(Heights and Firms finished and assembled.)

2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
(And the Swear Heat Shaper finished dispatchment doing and ceased, the Swear Heat, of dispatchment doing.)

Comment 24: This is the end of the heating up process – apparently now the heat is sufficient and can be maintained by some continuous process

3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
(And Shaper blessed the Swear Heat and sanctified that ceasing of dispatchment Shaper created and did.)

posted by don quixote:

This Joseph Atwill sounds to me like a most unreliable source; I suspect (99%) that he belongs to the tribe that hates Christ and his followers :

” Caesar’s Messiah was a book published by a dot com businessman named Joseph Atwill in 2005.

Last year, he released a documentary based on the book and everyone is talking about it all of a sudden,

because Atwill put out the world’s most misleading press release for his film screening in London.

Richard Dawkins then retweeted the press release, even though he said he didn’t endorse the theory, and now this eight-year-old theory is news again.

Thank you, Richard Dawkins.

Titus – The inventor of Jesus according to Atwill

The basic premise of Caesar’s Messiah is that the Roman Imperial family, the Flavians, invented Jesus by using the Jewish historian Josephus and,

presumably, other people to write the gospels after Rome defeated the Jews in 70 AD.

The idea was to make the militant Jewish rebels accept a peaceful Messiah and, thereby, give Rome less trouble.

Atwill says that the New Testament was written in a code that requires you to read Josephus’ War of the Jews alongside the New Testament to get the joke.

He, of course, is the only person to crack this code, making him super smart.

The following are just some of the major problems with this theory.

For footnotes and references to the claims I’m about to make, go to the link in the description or to the website ceasarsmessiahdebunked.com.

One of the biggest problems this theory has is the existence of Christianity before 73 AD, when Atwill says that the idea was concocted by the Romans.

Quite simply, if Christianity can be demonstrated to exist before that time, this theory is toast.

The famous historian Tacitus says that Nero was persecuting Christians in Rome in 64 AD.

He also mentions that “immense multitudes” of Christians were living in Rome at the time.

Try to figure out why “immense multitudes” of Christians are in Rome ten years before Christianity was supposed to have been invented.

Suetonius also mentions Nero punishing Christians, as well as many Christian historians.

That seems like a bad PR idea to write this kind of stuff: “Hey, everyone! Join the new religion so we can burn you alive and feed you to lions. The signup sheet is right over there.”

Paul, who tradition has being killed by Nero around 66 AD, wrote thirteen of the letters in the New Testament, all of them very Christian.

Even the most skeptical scholars in this field don’t date these letters later than 68 AD, and most of them much earlier than that.
Okay, so, let’s move beyond the historical problems with saying that Christianity didn’t exist before 73 AD, and let’s look at some of the common sense or logical problems with his theory.

Why in the world would the Romans do this? They had already totally crushed the Jews in 70 AD, destroying the city and the temple.

When the Romans had a problem with people not wanting to conform to their rules, which they did often, they did what they do best: crush people into submission with war.

There was never any need to do anything different, especially at this point in their history.

Also, consider that the Jews weren’t even a threat to them in any meaningful way.

Plus, as I said, they had already completely destroyed them.

Atwill, in response to J.P. Holding on the point that the Romans had already defeated the Jews, said well, yeah, but Josephus mentions that the Romans had some problems with a few Jewish rebels from Alexandria just after the war.

Holding replied, saying:

What Josephus refers to is disturbances in Alexandria that were instigated by the Sicarii who had fled to Jerusalem after being beaten there.

So, in reality, this was nothing more than a mop-up after a decisive victory – and I might add, no reason for Titus to invent a religion for them, since he beat them soundly there as well.

Okay, so let’s look a little bit at the New Testament that Titus supposedly created, and see if it makes sense to you that the Romans would make this up and actually want people to read it.

So, the Romans created a guy who said stuff like, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me?” Matthew 28:18

Jesus tells his followers over and over that loyalty to Him supersedes all other loyalties, including political authorities.

An example of his followers disobeying the government because Jesus’ teaching supersedes it can be found in Acts 5:29 and 4:19.

It’s difficult to express how atrocious and downright scary that idea would be to the Romans.

“So, you’re telling us that you have a true king who you are more loyal to than the emperor?”

Yeah. That idea was not a Roman invention, I can assure you.

Consider just this one example:

The worshipping of the emperors and Roman gods with the incense altar was considered a matter of national security by the Romans, because they believed that the gods and the dead emperors defended Rome; and anyone that didn’t do this sacrifice was angering the gods, and, therefore, endangering Rome’s national security.

Rome really didn’t care what your religion was as long as you would also worship their gods.

You could worship any God you wanted to as long as you added their gods to the list.

So why in the world would you create a Messiah who forbids the worshipping of other gods, especially emperors, if your goal is to make them good Roman citizens?

So many Christians were dying in the early days of Christianity because they refused this practice of sacrificing to the Roman gods.

Pliny the Younger wrote the Emperor Trajan asking him what he should do because he was having to kill so many people, including women and children.

He wanted to confirm with the Emperor that the official policy was to kill them if they didn’t sacrifice to Caesar.

He had not dealt with this before, because there weren’t many religions out there that had a problem with sacrificing to Caesar.

We actually have a copy of Trajan’s response to Pliny the Younger; so, if you want to know how Rome felt about this, here you go:

“…if they are denounced and proved guilty, they are to be punished, with this reservation, that whoever denies that he is a Christian and really proves it–that is, by worshiping our gods–even though he was under suspicion in the past, shall obtain pardon…”

Think about that logically.

Trajan is saying that the proof that a person is really a Christian in his eyes is that they won’t worship the emperor.

Does that really sound like something that Rome would create for the people?

If there was anything that Rome was more scared of than angering the gods, it was slave revolts.

Seventy-five percent of the Roman Empire consisted of slaves; and so, if they ever got the idea to rally around a cause, they could easily destroy Rome.

So, why create a religion where the hero is a falsely accused criminal who was crucified by the Roman government?

This mass of slaves being loyal to the Christian God over and above the emperor, as well as being anti Roman Gods, was a very bad thing for Rome.

It also gave these slaves a new sense of honor.

For example, after this point, slaves started refusing to have sex with their masters on account of them being Christians and their Christian God forbidding it.

This is just one of the reasons that Christians were persecuted in Rome for the first 300 years of their existence.

Here’s a question: If this religion was created to make radical militant Jews good Roman citizens, why in the world does Jesus and the New Testament clearly intend to reach the gentiles, people who already were good Roman citizens?

Mat 24:14 says, “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.”

Also:

Mat 28:19: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

Why in the world would you make this Christian God that you invent tell his utterly devoted followers to go convert Romans?

If a Roman converted, it would turn a good emperor-worshipping citizen into a non-emperor-worshipping enemy of the state.

What a stupid plan, Titus?

He also made a huge mistake by writing the New Testament gospels in Greek, which would make a ton of sense if the early Christians were trying to reach the Gentile world; but it makes little to no sense if the reverse is true, that is, that the Romans were trying to reach Aramaic-speaking Jews.

Another logical impossibility is that all these Jews just accepted these “hot off the presses” gospels– which were claiming to be historical–as true, even though they all just lived through the time period that these gospels were describing, but obviously no one ever saw any of the events recorded in them, because they were all made up.

So this guy was going around raising the dead, healing leprosy, healing the sick.

He became a rock star all throughout Israel, where crowds routinely got up to 5000.

He had all these royal rumbles with rulers in public places, turning over tables in the temple, etc.

He was even crucified on the Passover when an eclipse and an earthquake happened, and no one ever said,

 “Hey, I don’t remember seeing any of that. I don’t know anyone that ever did. My parents never spoke of it. What the heck! I’ll die for that.”

There are a ton of problems with the idea that Josephus wrote all the gospels, but most of them are kind of technical, so, I won’t dwell on them here; but I will direct you to my website caesarsmessiahdebunked.com/  for more information about why textual critics think such an idea is really silly.

But the main idea is that you can easily discern different writers and styles, as well as different sources, which all have the hallmarks of these documents developing quite naturally.

Since Atwill has no real history or science on his side, he spends most of his time on what he calls “parallels” between the New Testament and Josephus’ book, The Wars of the Jews.

Atwill states that by comparing these two works you can crack the code that shows that Jesus was just being compared to the Emperor Titus.

One reviewer of Atwill’s book–who clearly thinks that Jesus is a myth, so they have no religious reason to disagree with him–said the following of his “parallels:”

…the Jesus story is myth, but Atwill’s presentation of “proofs” and “discoveries” are convoluted.

The “clues” Atwill “discovered” are so vague that, like the prophecies of Nostradamus, historical facts have to be reinterpreted and their meanings changed in order to bend and twist events so that they appear to follow a chronology similar to a historical campaign of war against the Jews found in “The War of the Jews.”

So, for example, Atwill says that when it Matthew 4 it says, “Then He said to them, ‘Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men.’ They immediately left their nets and followed Him.”

The “parallel” to this is supposed to be when Josephus recorded Titus, after a naval defeat of the Jews, killed the ones remaining in the water by spears and cutting off their hands.

If you don’t see the “parallel,” it’s probably because you aren’t smart enough, like Atwill is.

After all, he is the only one who knows the secret code of the New Testament.

Maybe it will help if I explain another so-called “parallel.”

Josephus reports that a woman named Mary ate her child during the siege of Jerusalem when there was no food left.

Atwill says that this gruesome act of starvation was supposed to represent Jesus saying that the bread at the Last Supper represented his body, which would be broken for them.

These kinds of claims, of course, are un-falsifiable.

Whenever you choose to change meanings to your liking, you can make anything be a match; and so, this section of his book is pretty much worthless.

post by cal:

My dearest DQ,

Thank you for this post. I suspect that you are posting this for a couple of reasons. Firstly, that you probably give some credence to Chris White’s video/dialogue debunking Joseph Atwill. Secondly, you probably have some adherence to Christ and/or Christianity as most of us in the western world have.

But let me propose a third reason. Perhaps you are a truth seeker as you have previously stated, and in spite of your stated objection you do sincerely want the truth. Of course all three of these propositions could be true. In some sense I too am a partaker of all three propositions. But above all, I want the truth. I have paid dearly for the truth in my life. Many times I assure you. None want the truth as badly as myself as far as people I have thus encountered in my life.

In this quest for the truth I have come to the realization that Chris White is not interested in the truth. He is not a disinterested inquirer. He obviously has a lot at stake that his version of the truth be true. Here is his biography as posted on Amazon:

Chris is an author, filmmaker and host of several online radio programs on various subjects. He is also the director of the internet radio station called The Revelations Radio Network. He produces documentaries and short videos for educational purposes.

He has written at least six books on Christianity. He has too much of a vested interest in this debate to be unbiased. He is not objective in my opinion, and I really don’t think that he is looking for the truth. He just doesn’t want anyone to rock his boat IMHO.

So let’s see if the flat earth is the longest running conspiracy of all time or if indeed there is a longer running one–i.e. Christianity. This onion has many layers as you might suspect. What Chris White is arguing from is a limited perspective. He obviously believes in the official version of history and that is his first mistake. He also believes that many of the historical extant documents are reliable and not falsified in any way. That is his second mistake. And I doubt if he believes in “conspiracy theories” of any kind. His third and fatal mistake.

I have to agree with @kateye that we should hold our position on any topic tentatively, as any new information which might come to light can very well disprove our current worldview wrong. That indeed is the scientific method. If any data come to light which contradict our theory we either need to revise our theory or develop a new theory to incorporate all of the data.

So let’s take a look at some of Chris White’s arguments and see if perhaps there might be a different explanation to them.

You said, “This Joseph Atwill sounds to me like a most unreliable source…” Let me ask you in all seriousness if you have read his books, or know much about him other than what this Chris White has told you? You do not have to answer as I probably already know your answer.

Here is Chris White’s summary of Atwill’s book:

The basic premise of Caesar’s Messiah is that the Roman Imperial family, the Flavians, invented Jesus by using the Jewish historian Josephus and, presumably, other people to write the gospels after Rome defeated the Jews in 70 AD. The idea was to make the militant Jewish rebels accept a peaceful Messiah and, thereby, give Rome less trouble.

Atwill says that the New Testament was written in a code that requires you to read Josephus’ War of the Jews alongside the New Testament to get the joke. He, of course, is the only person to crack this code, making him super smart.

Upon reading White’s defense I see that he has neither debunked Atwill’s thesis nor proven his own. Rather than Atwill being super smart I would say that White is super stupid. He obviously doesn’t understand the rules of engagement. He must either actually debunk his opponent’s position or offer a plausible one of his own. He has done neither.

One of the biggest problems this theory has is the existence of Christianity before 73 AD, when Atwill says that the idea was concocted by the Romans. Quite simply, if Christianity can be demonstrated to exist before that time, this theory is toast.

So what does White do? He uses the alleged historians Tacitus, Suetonius, Trajan, and Paul as real historical figures who have allegedly written historical documents. What proof do we have that these people existed or that the documents we have were written by them, or thirdly that these documents are true? None. Zip. It is a total assumption by White (and undoubtedly millions of others) that these were real people, not fake people or pseudonyms, and that the stories they told are true. Don’t people lie, and make conspiracies to conceal the truth? If one thing I have learned from watching the T.V. show House is, it is that everyone lies.

I remember distinctly the turning point of my understanding of history came when I was reading the red-line comments from one of my wife’s history papers. It was on the carpetbaggers and rebuilding of the South after the Civil War. He wrote something like this: “No primary sources.” I never got to ask him about it, and didn’t understand that comment for years, but finally I figured it out. He was essentially saying, “Were you there?” “How do you know that that is what happened?” “If all you have are tertiary testimonies, then they have just accepted the word of someone else.”

Okay, so, let’s move beyond the historical problems with saying that Christianity didn’t exist before 73 AD, and let’s look at some of the common sense or logical problems with his theory.

Why in the world would the Romans do this? They had already totally crushed the Jews in 70 AD, destroying the city and the temple.

So here White bases his argument on why would Rome do this? …destroying the city and the temple. Again we have the assumption by White that 1) Rome existed; 2) Israel existed (in Palestine); and 3) the Temple existed (in Palestine). However, as Fomenko concludes the nation of Rome was invented. Archaeology demonstrates that there NEVER existed a nation such as Israel that the Old Testament describes in Palestine. There is absolutely no archaeological proof whatsoever. So as far as I can tell White believes in fairy tales and has based his argument on such.

Okay, so let’s look a little bit at the New Testament that Titus supposedly created, and see if it makes sense to you that the Romans would make this up and actually want people to read it.


It’s difficult to express how atrocious and downright scary that idea would be to the Romans. “So, you’re telling us that you have a true king who you are more loyal to than the emperor?”

Yeah. That idea was not a Roman invention, I can assure you.

And we should believe Chris White why? Perhaps White should read Flavio Barbiero’s book The Secret Society of Moses which demonstrates compellingly that Christianity was a creation of the elite?

So why create a religion, as White asks? Well let’s take it one step further. Why create the nation of Rome? Why create a false history for Rome? This really couldn’t be a conspiracy that big, could it? Curiously the writer of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, Edward Gibbon was a freemason. Coincidence or not?

And Chris White has the audacity to claim that “Atwill has no real history or science on his side”? I would suggest that White check out the very believable alternate The Historical Origin of Christianity by Walter Williams if he wants to know what real history looks like.

The Truth on How the Bible came into print…”Cant Deny the Facts”

So do I, a former pastor, believe that Jesus existed? At this point I do not know for sure. I think that he did, as per Fomenko in the 11th and 12th centuries. He certainly wasn’t what we are told he was. Ralph Ellis has some interesting ideas as well. You will undoubtedly have to revise your understanding of the Bible though.

I have a friend who has said, “The best deceit is always laid in a foundation of truth.” So true.

post by kateye:

Ah, spirituality…such a personal thing that has been manipulated for too long. Ancient artifacts in almost all cultures have shown that the cross, crescent moon/star, star of David have been major icons for thousands of years co-existing in cultures until the 3 branches were isolated into separate religions that for all intents and purposes have been used as the number one control device to date. These 3 separate branches alone may represent up to 4 billion people – what a base!

Speaking from the heart, my natural inborn intuition has always been with the Natives of America – I don’t know why, but they seem to me to be the best stewards of spiritual practices regarding the earth, each other and beliefs. When I was younger I used to think ‘well, how will these beautiful people get to heaven without a Jesus?’ Today I think they didn’t need a Jesus because they were not abusing and manipulating events around the world. That intervention may have been manipulated or ordained.  Who knows for sure in this day or time?  The fact that we are questioning and trying to find the truth, in my eyes, is enough for the higher power to see we are doing the best we can in these trying times.  Soooo….I chose to align myself with people that have the best of intentions regardless of their spiritual belief.  Those that respect each others views but still vocalize more to instill the best in us; to dig deep and find out WHY we so dogmatically hang on to some beliefs and yet, can let go of others in recognition of the deceit it was fomented from.

Today I choose not to let anyone put me in a box and dictate what is right or wrong – my in-born heart does that for me…my radar.  Those little things we used to rely on before we were bombarded with bad air, bad food, bad medicine, and bad spiritual manipulations that kept us so small.

Interesting video choice cal to make your point…I enjoyed that.

post by don Quixote:

With me the quest for truth is beyond self, beyond survival and beyond any and all of my knowledge –

I don’t have the luxury to take anything for granted.

However to function, however inconsequential, on this path through dangerous waters one has to rely on some stepping stones.

There are few things that my life revealed to me at times and if I only later understood those lessons, nevertheless I feel prepared thus for what is coming, for what will purge my mind of fallacies and errors and reveal yet a larger landscape of our destiny.

1. I know there is God – beyond coincidences and fortunate resolutions, I found real and obvious proof of His Grace and Power.

The prayers answered with most decisive signs and miracles were the ones directed to my Lord, Jesus Christ.

2. I know that the Synagogue of Satan is a relentless menace focused upon the perversion, alienation, confusion and destruction of Man – those wretched sons of perdition, those slimy octopuses obsessed with money, money-power and satanic ritual sacrifice are controlling, manipulating, deceiving (through deception thou shall win the war) and murdering our fellow man for ever.

To me history and the perversion of history make perfect sense under those dualistic tensions, from Egyptian, and Greco-Roman decadence until the Bolshevik, Holo-Hoax, or our dear ball Earth deception ::)

I appreciate the chance to confess my credo here, within the safe and respectful atmosphere of your patience with me, dear cal .

post by bluesky:

I concur my dear friend DQ.

Jesus has revealed Himself to me as well in many special, perfectly timed ways over the last 20 years and still does today.

If you draw near him he draws near you. If you seek him with an open heart to find Him, he will reveal to you pearls of great price.

I seeked Him and he blew my socks off. My wifes to! Never went back to the old me…. although I do fall and stumble much more than I like, but I AM a work in progress.. with this little piece of subjective evidence, it joins the other massive blocks of evidence (anthropological, archaeology, geological, biological etc…) that paints a picture of the most beautiful love story the earth has ever seen.

peace gentlemen

~bsky

post by cal:

@kateye ,

Just a slight correction here to your comment that “Ancient artifacts in almost all cultures have shown that the cross, crescent moon/star, star of David have been major icons for thousands of years co-existing…” I think that it can be easily substantiated that the white man stole from the black man when Alexander the Greek (not Great) saw the splendors and high society and culture of Egypt. Christianity was created based on the black man’s culture in Ancient Egypt (Khemet). I have dozens of books attesting to this — that Christianity was born in Egypt. Check out these videos from various authors. Watch at least the first one…

Sara Suten Seti Exposes Muslim & Christian Theft Of Africa!!

THE SECRET COVER-UP OF BLACK PEOPLE BIBLICAL HISTORY PT 1

Dr Barashango-Black People In The Bible

Dr. Yosef Ben Jochannan – The African Origin of Christianity

Brother Ray Hagins – Stolen Story Full Length

DR. WALTER WILLIAMS: European Religious Imperialism – The True History Of Christianity & Islam!

post by bluesky:

Cal, with respect brother… @2:24 of the first video he states something like “spiritual practices have been happening for tens of thousands of years before these religions”, this I concur with, however I disagree with his overall thrust thus far.

The reason for this (mans constant need for worship) is because since the days of a real historical ADAM, i.e. the very beginning) man has been a spiritual creature. As time has crept on from Adam, to Noah, to Abraham to Jesus till today, the same one God has been calling man to be reconciled to himself. Everything in between is man made and twisted at times. Even the majority of the Jews” got spun around, but the remnant was always there as providence will attest. The true truth marches on…

Christianity was not invented 2,000 years ago. Jesus, was who was walking with Adam in the Garden. Jesus was always been the manifestation of what we see when we see God. That why we see “savoir motifs” through out history, Adam knew about a savoir! Christianity is the continuation of a 10,000 year attempt by the maker to reach mans stubborn heart with the Gospel.

Yes I am quite sure that there is much overlapping of customs and some symbols and even buildings… this is to be expected given that man started with the same common core beliefs with Noah and his family. Some of these symbols no doubt had even been resurrected from pre-flood days, hense they look like something from another planet (OOPArt’s) in the world that died. We can’t get hung up on lables.

God has always let the tares grow with the wheat until he does not. The wide amount of pagan “religions” that have existed on earth gives testimony to this. But always along side these, God has always had (provided) the true truth to be available for those who seek it.

Mans dark, rebellious heart has always been at war with this plan however.

The Gospel stands alone on the world stage as an incredible testament to the true truth that Adam and Eve bent a knee to as we all will do one day.

Peace brother

As an interesting aside, to my above post, take it for what you will…seconds for hitting “post” I was hunting for a video to add to my post, and the blue screen of death came from no where telling me I had a terrible virus. Everything was frozen, my entire post and operating system was lost, so I thought… I asked God if he wanted it up, to help me. I had to reboot the whole thing which has taken some time as I am not a computer guy…then this wonderful screen popped up asking me if I wanted to use the draft that it detected! Ha! I love it! Anyway, just wanted to share that. O_o :D

posted by cal:

@bluesky ,

Also with all due respect, I know what the gospel is, maybe even better than you. I preached it. I was a missionary pastor preaching it in a foreign (to me) language. How much have you given up for the gospel? What I’m saying now is that the gospel is not true.

I was once where you are. I am not in any way disparaging your belief. That is what you currently believe at this point in your life. Good on you. While I won’t agree with you, I will defend your right to your belief and your right to free speech about what you believe.

And if you want to disregard anything and everything that I’ve posted, with or without reading it — again that is entirely your choice. However, if you really are a truth seeker then you won’t do this so lightly. You will respect others and what they have to say.

My only prayer for you is the Ancient Prayer:

From the cowardice that shrinks from new truth,

From the laziness that is content with half-truths,

From the arrogance that thinks it knows all truth,

O God of truth, deliver us.

— Ancient Prayer

Peace to you too Brother

posted by don Quixote:

Indeed, my dear cal the right of anyone to believe what they were chosen, lead to, or chose for themselves to believe

is worth preserving with one’s freedom, life and soul.

That’s why to a truth seeker the pogrom in the Germanic nations directed against free speech is repulsive and abhorrent.

It is plainly obvious that there is a tribe in the World that is basically criminal, psychopathic and Godless people,

they work in collusion so as to confuse and detract humanity from their soul salvation.

I’ll submit to you that behind every initiative to hijack history, church and nation, when looking deeper, you will find the

Talmudic, or other related teachings of Satan agents.

I look around and I see the waste those parasites have brought in every area of our life, from history, science, health, education, economy, politics, news, entertainment and so on.

Everywhere they incrementally tighten the shackles until soon we will assist helplessly to our own demise.

For an intellectual the truth is simple, yet the path to reach a sufficient understanding is anything but easy.

For the uneducated, but fervent believer, the truth is mysterious, but the grace of God omnipresent.

The Gospels describe exactly this scenario.

How can I discard the only instrument of my mind and soul realisation, the Gospels ?

I tried to imagine for a moment the history of man outside of the Adamic paradigm.

Guess what – under that proviso, the BigBang, Dawkings, Darwin, Freud and even Marx make sense –

it is a perfect setup for the story of man-ape lost in an indifferent and potentially lethal cosmos.

The history becomes a series of most unfortunate random events and there is no design behind the mayhem,

just the man’s intrinsic bestial nature would do.

But is this what we see around us ?

Isn’t one single tribe controlling every single institution where the power to control and the power to embezzle the man resides ?

UN, IMF, US inc., EU inc., FRB, every central bank, Wall Street, all markets, all stock exchanges, all financial instruments,

regulatory agencies, supervisory comities, Hollywood, all the major news agencies and outlets around the world,

all TV stations, all academic institutions, NASA, CERN, ESA, CIA, DHS, NSA, and so on ???

Zeitgeist, Phelps, Atwill all could be working to confuse, or derail us, as far as I am concerned.

There are debunkers and then there are debunker’s debunkers, I see no real payoff going that way.

I’ll rather start with research that could be grasped and validated or invalidated with a little investigative effort.

But, before anything, one should strive to frame the issue of God.

For me Descartes invokes in subtext the presence of God when making the famous claim :

 “dubito, ergo cogito

cogito, ergo sum “

I doubt, therefore I think, I think, therefore I am.

You will see that doubt in itself would never resolve into a worthy thought, there is necessary an anchor to ground you,

what the relativists call a reference frame, in this case most aptly invoked :

God.

You doubt everything else, but your given reason and purpose and that is God’s gift.

Otherwise, you will simply exhaust every avenue of your quest, turning in larger circles without centre.

You will be lost in the desert of morphed illusions.

God structures one’s research, substantiates and justifies one longings for whole and open glimpses

into the structures of His Work, with fractal realisation (thank you, maxine) or Bach counterpoint,

the geometry elegant laws, or the resonance phenomena with its far reaching sympathies in overtones.

Somewhere above our friend @kateye forwarded a translation of God as a Shaker – a vibratory and

vibration inducing entity, and I found it adequate and enriching my own understanding of God.

I remember that Royal Raymond Rife used radio waves to cure ailments (AMA – another tribal conspiracy

forbade such simple and beneficial solutions) and I also recall that Masaru Emoto evidenced the manifestation of

a spiritual and esoteric nature all around us.

The thing with me is that Jesus (the Gospels) have provided the key I needed to understand.

The rest is silence.

Tolerance. love and peace are my weapons, shield and cross :)

posted by kateye:

The following video is an interview with Newearth’s Silvie’ Ivanowa (thanks ele) that covers a bit about her series of videos about the ‘survivors’ in all cultures as well as further commentary on issues covered in this thread; a good introduction for those that have not viewed Newearth yet.

Published on Jan 5, 2016
Alternative researcher, Silvie’ Ivanowa joins THC to talk about the content of her YouTube series: When The Atlantis and Hyperborea Survivors Wake Up. It includes information from many sources in what some call the “New Chronology Movement,” several that are fairly hard to access for an English speaking audience. One of the more major sources, is the work of Russian researcher, Anatoly Fomenko who has written a huge 7 book series laying out his version of the true history called History: Fiction or Science?

Silvie’ has also gotten many related insights from her over 200 Ayahuasca ingestions, and together, this all makes for a great can of THC soup. Enjoy.

Watch The Survivors Series: www.youtube.com/playlist?list

Visit the website: megaliths.org/

posted by cal:

My gracious DQ,

I agree with everything you have spoken. So much truth. Well and eloquently said.

I am not one to throw out the baby with the bathwater either.

The Bible is and has been the cornerstone of modern civilization these last five hundred years.

In it like no other tome are the words of life, to whom else shall we turn? (John 6:68)

However, at the same time I will not disregard the mind that God has given me and ignore the workings of this devious Talmudic Zionist cult.

To the religious, absolutely they should hold on to their gods. I should be abhorrent if I entice them to eat meat sacrificed unto false gods.

But to those who want the unadulterated truth, let them come.

My theology has been boiled down to a mere two tenets:

I believe in God; and

Be nice to everyone.

What is more than this?

Except as perhaps you suggest, “Tolerance. love and peace are my weapons, shield and cross.”  ;)

posted by bluesky:

Cal,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply friend. I did not post the Gospel message to put it to you,(so to speak) :))  but to put an exclamation mark on my post, apologies if came across differently. I have not given to the Gospel what you have; I do what I can do when I do.  I know I fall short.

I am intrigued by your post, honestly.  I am all ears. Please elaborate (if you could) on the biggest reason/evidence/thought/etc.. that helped you come to the conclusion that the Gospel is not true.

I personally will never shrink from shining lights into dark corners, even corners that I am uncertain what lurks.

If the Gospel is not true truth then it does not deserve my attention.

If I could however, ask that you condense the issue to a singular issue if possible. I am not a theologian nor anyone important, just a truth hunter.

Regards,

~bsky

posted by don Quixote:

Thank you, dear @kateye for the video posted above, it will be my delightful research task for this evening  :)

Reading your posts, dear @bluesky , dear cal ,

I had this idea that while we appear to debate with passion, we always dance with grace

and perhaps not a duel that leaves damaged men behind is the right image to envision here,

but a Sufi dance of illumination weather individual beings, listening to inside generated rhythms and beats,

manage in time to synchronise their souls under a common and all encompassing brotherhood,

a miracle from on high as it is.

I thank you both, humbled by your beautiful spirit !

posted by cal:

@bluesky

Thank you for your kind reply. I too am humbled by your spirit.

I am intrigued by your post, honestly. I am all ears. Please elaborate (if you could) on the biggest reason/evidence/thought/etc.. that helped you come to the conclusion that the Gospel is not true.

I personally will never shrink from shining lights into dark corners, even corners that I am uncertain what lurks.

If the Gospel is not true truth then it does not deserve my attention.

This is a tall order. Please allow me some time to put together an appropriate post.

I admire your willingness to examine the truth. As I’ve heard said, “Truth examined will always remain true. Therefore we should have no fear of examining it.”

“If the Gospel is not true truth then it does not deserve my attention.” Actually, don’t be so quick to act here. While much of what we are told about the Bible is patently false, that does not mean that all that is in the Bible is likewise false. There is much truth in it.

I find that everywhere it speaks about cosmology it turns out to be true. Even Joshua 10:12-14 has justified itself over much disbelief. Therefore whoever wrote the Bible did have extraordinary knowledge.

There has been those who have sowed tares among the wheat… So quite the contrary — like the parable of the man finding hidden treasure in a field we do have reason to study the Bible.

posted by bluesky:

I wholeheartedly agree DQ, as usual, eloquent and wise words.  This is the best place on the web!

Cal, please take your time.  I am genuinely interested. Here’s why.

I spent several years when I first became a Christian, questioning every aspect of it.  Each time I thought I had God stumped and pinned in a corner, He graciously Provided a satisfactory answer for me. I was not an easy customer let me tell you.  I used to phone my mentor several times a day – even in the middle of the night with questions and new discoveries of problems.

Mind you at times, I really had to do some leg work (and show I was serious) to find the answer.

Let me tell you, many a sleepless night were spent stewing, obsessing & wrestling with a supposed intellectual or scientific problem that I thought I had discovered.

I now (personally) have given up trying to find problems and know a little better what it means to walk by faith. I now trust Him much more that there are answers to all the questions even if I cannot fully grasp them.

Some things we just will not fully understand this side of Heaven. (like a child compared to an adult) (For now we see in a mirror dimly 1 Corinthians 13)

If I could be so bold, Cal, you mentioned this:

“While much of what we are told about the Bible is patently false, that does not mean that all that is in the Bible is likewise false. There is much truth in it.”

For me, if a Creator can go to all the trouble of creating a Creation this wonderful and all in it, yet he is unable to tell us the truth or communicate in an accurate manner, down through the ages, the who’s, why’s and what’s, then for me, He is unworthy to follow. That may sound extreme, but that’s what I feel.  Its all or nothing for me.  He says in His Word that He has supernaturally persevered his words for us, so, if this is wrong, and the Bible contains falsehoods, as you say, then God is incompetent and not worthy to follow. Luckily, (or providentially) from my research, this is not the case.

One last point if I may push my luck…with respect friend ( I am trying to play the ball, not the man ) ::)

You mentioned this:

“I believe in God; and

Be nice to everyone.

What is more than this?”

Although truthful and wonderful statements, Believing in something does not necessarily matter. Satan and his demons, “believe” in God, yet we all know their fate.  Believing that a Tylenol pill will take away your headache will not work unless you take the pill. God has said in the Bible that there is indeed “more than this” for a man to be near Him in the next life.

Anyway, enough of my ranting.  I look forward to your opinions, and feel free to critique mine.

As you have said, the TRUTH fears nothing… :))

Regards

~bsky

posted by cal” @bluesky

If I could however, ask that you condense the issue to a singular issue if possible.

I will try to be brief, but there isn’t just one issue that I could point to. Rather, it has taken me a lifetime of study.

And while you may not be a theologian, discussing theology is really the only way to present this.

I grew up in Catholicism, but was “saved” at nineteen at university. I left my engineering job to go to seminary in Tacoma, Washington with family in tow. We then by faith moved to Quebec, no jobs and I still couldn’t speak French.

My first “departure from orthodoxy” was when I joined an online prophecy type discussion forum. I was a dispensationalist at the time and the moderator challenged me to defend the rapture. When I couldn’t defend it biblically I conceded this point to him hands down. This was only the start. I would discover the 180 year-old conspiracy by the Jesuits Francisco Ribera and Robert Bellarmine, John Nelson Darby, Edward Irving, and Cyrus Ingersol Scofield and eventually reject dispensationalism.

This quest to understand the futurism error took me about seven years and I ventured through amillenialism, historicism, idealism and ultimately preterism in my understanding of biblical prophecy. Full preterism is the biblical teaching if you take the Bible seriously. (Matthew 16:27-28)

So out of the ten major areas of theology, Eschatology was the first division to fall. I could easily list fifty books on preterism if you’d like such a list.

1. Bibliology-The Bible;
2. Theology Proper-The Godhead;
3. Christology-Christ;
4. Pneumatology-The Holy Spirit;
5. Angelology-Angels/Demons;
6. Anthropology-Man;
7. Soteriology-Salvation;
8. Hamartiology-Sin;
9. Ecclesiology-The Church; and
10. Eschatology-Last Things

The next area was Ecclesiology as I came to understand the biblical teaching required a house church concept. After this it was Theology Proper, Christology, and Pneumatology as I understood that the Trinity is also non-biblical (See Anthony Buzzard’s book The Doctrine of the Trinity: Christianity’s Self-Inflicted Wound). Next was Angelology as I discovered that the devil is not real but metaphorical in nature. Check out The Real Devil by Duncan Heaster for one book. I have over 3,500 books in my library not to mention ebooks and articles.

Again all these steps came with much study and years to progress through. Then the orthodox view of Bibliology took a hit with my understanding that the Bible was not written two and three thousand years ago as we have been told, but rather only five hundred plus years. See Fomenko’s research showing that the book of Revelation was written no earlier than 1486. Thus the history which supported the official biblical story was no longer credible. The old testament books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles was merely the history of medieval Rome. The Pentateuch probably (ancient) Egyptian history, plus a lot of astrotheology. The new testament probably written by the Romans or Erasmus (as per Walter Williams).

Thus the orthodox doctrine of Bibliology which is drilled into bible students that the Bible is the infallible, inerrant, inspired Word of God is total bunk. The Bible is not a reliable historical document and has internal contradictions. As Joseph Atwill has asked, we have not asked ourselves what type of literature the Bible is. And to this date, I don’t think I could give you an adequate answer. It is certainly not intended to be taken literally, as their is no historical / archaeological evidence for a nation of Israel to have existed in Palestine whatsoever.

So lastly I concluded that the areas of doctrine of Anthropology, Soteriology, and Hamartiology are kind of like Calvinism–an airtight system as far as logic is concerned, but wrong nevertheless. Calvinism really goes back to Augustine (who probably never existed).

For me, if a Creator can go to all the trouble of creating a Creation this wonderful and all in it, yet he is unable to tell us the truth or communicate in an accurate manner, down through the ages, the who’s, why’s and what’s, then for me, He is unworthy to follow. That may sound extreme, but that’s what I feel. Its all or nothing for me. He says in His Word that He has supernaturally persevered his words for us, so, if this is wrong, and the Bible contains falsehoods, as you say, then God is incompetent and not worthy to follow.

So your ideas that firstly requires God to communicate with us (special revelation) and secondly needs Him to preserve His Word (preservation of scriptures) are totally idealistic. God has not communicated with us, and the Bible is not it.

Basically, He wasn’t really interested or concerned enough to do so. The Bible we have is not the confluent authorship of God and man, it is simply man who wrote it period.

You mentioned this:

“I believe in God; and

Be nice to everyone.

What is more than this?”

Although truthful and wonderful statements, Believing in something does not necessarily matter. Satan and his demons, “believe” in God, yet we all know their fate. Believing that a Tylenol pill will take away your headache will not work unless you take the pill. God has said in the Bible that there is indeed “more than this” for a man to be near Him in the next life.

My new two-point doctrinal statement is simply the two greatest commandments in the Bible. 1. Love God; and 2. Love your neighbor.

As for the supposed devil, I could easily defend my position as him being a creation of man. The Hebrew word ‘satan’ simply means adversary. In the new testament it was simply transliterated as satan, and the word diabolos / diabolical used instead.

So here your argument is begging the question as to whether the devil exists. BTW an entire christian denomination holds this view–the Christadelphians.

Now I’m not saying that supernatural beings don’t exist, as I have done a considerable amount of reading into the paranormal recently. I think that the Bible, as with all books written by man, is simply trying to explain God and this universe to us, and give us some valuable knowledge.

Undoubtedly you will want more than this, but that can be the topics of future posts…

posted by bluesky:

Wonderful reply Brother! Thank you.  I am going to reply in sections and slowly so I do not overwhelm myself. I am a simple man.

Tonight, so far, sleep eluding me, I thought I might get this out before I forget it all. (The Chemtrails have cooked my brains!) O_o Your intro was amazing. :)  I agree with all you said.  I too grew up Catholic, and after a life time of it, threw it and all things God out the window. (25 years later, authentic Christianity found me.)

I am a partial preterist myself, insofar as much as I can understand the issues. Eschatology is hard stuff! Full Preterism goes too far the other way imho. My mentor has gone through all you stated above, lol, amazing… ( I was spared the journey as he got closer to the truth before he got to me!) Eschatology is not my strong suit, but my mentors. He wrote a book on it and has been studying it for 35 years.  But I know what he would tell me to say here.

Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater!  As you well know, Eschatology is a rather complicated and layered subject, ripe with pit falls. Intense and deep knowledge of the whole Bible is required for proper discussion/understanding.  Who knows if any of the above views you mentioned have the whole truth. My mentor and I would agree. But this no reason to discard the entire Gospel in my opinion. O_o :)

Dispensationalism (Darby et al) is the curse of the modern world and has given the “tribe” ( who are actually not the tribe) terrible power ( from well meaning but ignorant evangelicals ) that is being abused the planet over! O_o Every thing you said thus far I agree with and you are correct imho.

I could not do justice why Full Preterism is wrong here,  ( its not my cup of tea) but I could get my mentors opinion if you wanted to hear it. PP is the most balanced view I think and it makes sense.

Anyway, Enough for now!

Take care Cal, I will chew through the rest this week! Thanks for the dialogue!

All the best ::) :)

1. Bibliology-The Bible;
2. Theology Proper-The Godhead;
3. Christology-Christ;
4. Pneumatology-The Holy Spirit;
5. Angelology-Angels/Demons;
6. Anthropology-Man;
7. Soteriology-Salvation;
8. Hamartiology-Sin;
9. Ecclesiology-The Church; and
10. Eschatology-Last ThingsThe next area was Ecclesiology as I came to understand the biblical teaching required a house church concept.

Well, I tend to agree with you here again Cal. However,  I do not recall any texts that stipulate or require a house for worship. The Bible clearly teaches that the “church” is the collective body of believers, not a building. ( the Catholics still teach buildings)

In the OT (as you know :) ) God dwelt in the Temple, in the holy of holies.  Today, Jesus has long since torn down the curtain that separated us from God and now we approach the Father through Jesus, he’s our mediator, we don’t need a “man-priest” to do the job.

Full circle…not to labour the point, but this realization should not make one discard the Gospel but embrace it! We don’t need buildings! We just need our mediator, Jesus.

Does that mean its bad to go to a “church” [building] for a service instead of a “home”, no, I don’t believe so. That’s being to woodenly literal and there is no text that support this view to my knowledge. It also makes no sense. The early church gathered where they could… local homes was a logical and convenient place- as persecution was rampant.

I can’t imagine for a second that God minds us gathering in a large building (as compared to a house) to worship and have fellowship.

God cares about the heart.

Peace Brother!

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